Vic Duan - Jun 5, 2012:

“People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.” They say.

Well, Hans, thanks for pointing out my ignorance. I will learn more. Before that let’s back to the how we could educate the clients and communicate with the public better.

There are a few windows in sight, but no glass house…

Vic, I didn’t want to sound condescending, but there is a lot of ignorance going round in these circles and large part of the ‘hobbyist’ stance is linked to the simple fact that many people that are ‘playing around’ with chatbots have in fact very little knowledge, let alone appreciation, for the real scope of the AI research field. Chatbots are, all in all, a very little part of that research field.

Another thing is that chatbots are the most accessible AI-related technology for hobbyists, with several systems available as Open Source and able to run on a low spec PC. Almost all other areas in AI-research are in some way very expensive.

Vic Duan - Jun 5, 2012:

Hans, from your website I see you’re soliciting funding for your company. Don’t you think what I proposed would benefit you firstly?

I seriously doubt it, as my development has little (if nothing) to do with chatbots.

The one thing I have noticed since working with AI and developing my virtual assistant is that people are very quick to criticize chatbots or other AI converstational applications. There are many kinds of fruit that can grown from trees. Some are sweet while others are bitter. Some are not even eatable! When it comes to chatbots it depends on the purpose and the technology that is being used. Just because you happen not to like a particular fruit that does not mean you have to start chopping down all the trees!

I have never seen as much professional jealousy than I have with chatbot developers. Why?
Most software developers work together to build better and more powerful tools that everyone can use.
So why expend so much negitive energy?
To what end?

It is correct that natural language processing and understanding is a sub-field of AI.  But if one wishes to pursue chatbot technology, whether it be a simple Eliza program or all the way up to WATSON level, without knowledge of other subfields of AI like vision processing, robotics, speech recognition, that is purely their own choice, or I like to believe so, I like to think we live in a free world, where I live anyway.

It is an extremely bold claim to make to promise to deliver a full generalized intelligence computing system.  I hope you can deliver on it Hans.  If you do, we’ll all praise you.  But if you don’t…. hum… all this arrogance, I dunno… .. kidding.

Hans Peter Willems - Jun 6, 2012:

... ‘hobbyist’ stance is linked to the simple fact that many people that are ‘playing around’ with chatbots.

Yes, we are, we all are.  As far as I’m concerned, (along the lines of what CR was saying also), we’re all ‘just playing’ - you are too, until you can show us some results and change the world with your strong ai engine you’re working on.  IF and when that happens, you wlll be able to say you are ‘above’ the rest of us and not just ‘playing around’.  Many many people in the computer industry from such as Steve Woznaick with his ‘blue boxes’ and George Stibitz with his 2-bit adder, were just ‘playing around’....until they made a huge financial success and useful products.

Hans Peter Willems - Jun 6, 2012:

  Chatbots are, all in all, a very little part of that research field.

They are now.  But I think,  when a powerful enough NLU system were available that could run entire call center, I think that would be, on the contrary an EXTREMELY finanically huge part of the AI industry!

Laura Patterson - Jun 6, 2012:

I have never seen as much professional jealousy than I have with chatbot developers. Why?
Most software developers work together to build better and more powerful tools that everyone can use.
So why expend so much negitive energy?
To what end?

While I’m certain that there is a small minority within this community that seems to fit this description, I think that the vast majority of us here don’t fall into that category. I am currently working with several people in the community on several different projects (though with most of these projects, my involvement isn’t in a large capacity), and I’d welcome the opportunity to add whatever contributions I can make to any type of project that I could conceivably apply my skills to. I think that the only reason that it seems like “everyone” is so negative is that most of those of us who aren’t just don’t say much on the matter. Maybe we who mostly remain positive, yet silent, should consider changing that, and becoming positive, yet vocal. Imagine the changes we could make if we just applied “positive thinking”, and positive reinforcement to our relationships, whether it’s out in the world at large, or here, in the forums. Yes? No? Maybe?

Dave, you articulated what I wanted to say but couldn’t.

Chatbots.org is a very small community. I got to know this because today I find my rank here is 199. If we further divide the members into hobbists/“professionls”, nonprofits/for-profits, weak AI/strong AI… we would find each of us rather lonely here

So, let’s leave all those differences aside try our best to cultivate an open, positive and supportive atomosphere here.

Laura Patterson - Jun 6, 2012:

The one thing I have noticed since working with AI and developing my virtual assistant is that people are very quick to criticize chatbots or other AI converstational applications. There are many kinds of fruit that can grown from trees. Some are sweet while others are bitter. Some are not even eatable! When it comes to chatbots it depends on the purpose and the technology that is being used. Just because you happen not to like a particular fruit that does not mean you have to start chopping down all the trees!

I have never seen as much professional jealousy than I have with chatbot developers. Why?
Most software developers work together to build better and more powerful tools that everyone can use.
So why expend so much negitive energy?
To what end?

I guess it’s a bit like the alchemists from olden days: generations have already tried and failed. The price at the end of the road is just so huge.
Another part of it is probably that programming is mostly a solitary occupation. Put these 2 together, and you can have some strange effects sometimes.

That said, I try to share most of my ideas in some way or another. A major hassle for me at least is trying to do that in a comprehensible way, without getting stuck into the explanation part.

Hmmm… maybe, instead of ‘people being negative’, it is a matter of ‘people being offended quickly’.

I’ll try to explain…

I’m not against ‘playing around’, I did do that chatbot-wise myself with AIML for about two years. There is nothing wrong in being a hobbyist, it’s fun to build a chatbot. When I say ‘playing around’, I don’t mean that in any condescending way; it just means ‘for fun’. The difference with the ‘professionals’ (mind you, I’m not saying I am a professional, before we tear open that can of worms), is mainly in things like funding, expectations, deadlines, commitments and contracts, stuff that is anything but ‘fun’. I’m pretty sure that the chatbot hobbyists have much more fun then the people that need to hunt for funding, and consequently get tied down in contracts and commitments.

But, here it is…

If you want to get something done, to reach for some goal, being a hobbyist or a professional, it always pays off when you have a firm grasp on reality. And with that comes at least a little bit of ‘knowing what it’s about’. So in fact I was trying to lend a helping hand, but some people have pretty thin skin it seems.

I’ve dealt with this in the past here, when I dared to talk about ‘professional research and/or development’, and people not reacting to the topic or matter at hand, but instead started ‘screaming’ about how I accused them of not being ‘professional’.... that is not constructive in a discussion.

Victor’s reply is a case in point:

As far as I’m concerned, (along the lines of what CR was saying also), we’re all ‘just playing’ - you are too, until you can show us some results and change the world with your strong ai engine you’re working on.

As the current state of strong-AI is simply that NOBODY yet has a working strong-AI engine,by this definition EVERYBODY is playing, including IBM, GOOGLE, all the universities doing strong-AI research, DARPA….. need I go on.

This is exactly what I mean by not being realistic. With all those parties the (financial) stakes are pretty high, people being responsible for cost, resources, etc. Proposing that there is little difference between the hobbyists and the professionals is unrealistic.

So you are called a hobbyist because you are… a hobbyist. Who cares, get over it. But what really bugs me, is that because of this it seemingly is impossible to have a discussion just a little above the ‘hobbyist’ mark. And that is just a loss.

Oh well….

screaming… omg.

Anyway, I *think* I’m basically understanding you now Hans.

Thanks for the clarification. . . . (btw. i’m not screaming (this line in a very faint whisper)).  Actually I thought all uppercase was ‘screaming’ (or ‘yelling’ same thing I guess). 

Hans Peter Willems - Jun 7, 2012:

it is a matter of ‘people being offended quickly

Yep… when just making a comment is taken as screaming

The one thing I failed to be totally clear about is that I don’t think anybody here (well almost nobody) is negitive about other’s member’s projects. Perhaps a better word to use would be “competetive” which is actually a positive word when it comes to co-developing new technologies. The thing I like the best about this forum is the level of intelligence of the members and their willingness to share their knowelege and experience with others. I for one have benefited greatly by joining this forum and will continue to contribute what I can to this community.

We are all on the same mission and pretty much on the same page (most the time).

Laura Patterson - Jun 7, 2012:

We are all on the same mission and pretty much on the same page (most the time).

Well, maybe on the same page (most of the time), but it’s a frightfully BIG page, with a LOT of paragraphs.

Very true Dave and sometimes in a foreign language that we can’t begin to understand!

Laura—no kidding !  Or the meaning is lost in translation !

Victor,

(by the way… Hi Victor )

Victor Shulist - Jun 7, 2012:

Anyway, I *think* I’m basically understanding you now Hans.

Thanks for the clarification. . . . (btw. i’m not screaming (this line in a very faint whisper)).  Actually I thought all uppercase was ‘screaming’ (or ‘yelling’ same thing I guess).

My example was not aimed at you, neither the comment about ‘screaming’. I used your reply as an example because it was handy

With the ‘screaming’ I didn’t mean ‘here and now’ as I was clearly referring to ‘the past’, where the ambiance (at some times) was… well let’s say ‘unfriendly’. I also meant it metaphorically, not as in ‘literal forum etiquette’.

Hans Peter Willems - Jun 7, 2012:

There is nothing wrong in being a hobbyist, it’s fun to build a chatbot. When I say ‘playing around’, I don’t mean that in any condescending way; it just means ‘for fun’.

Absolutely agreed.

Hans Peter Willems - Jun 7, 2012:

If you want to get something done, to reach for some goal, being a hobbyist or a professional, it always pays off when you have a firm grasp on reality. And with that comes at least a little bit of ‘knowing what it’s about’. So in fact I was trying to lend a helping hand, but some people have pretty thin skin it seems.

It helps to have a comprehensive understanding of what has been done in any area before you attempt to dive into that field yourself. However, providing someone who has developed commercial chatbot software a link to the wikipedia article for ‘robot’ is hardly lending a helping hand.

Hans Peter Willems - Jun 7, 2012:

I’ve dealt with this in the past here, when I dared to talk about ‘professional research and/or development’, and people not reacting to the topic or matter at hand, but instead started ‘screaming’ about how I accused them of not being ‘professional’.... that is not constructive in a discussion.

I think problems in the past have arisen mainly due to bold claims made about vaporware, not due to people becoming offended at being called hobbiests.

Hans Peter Willems - Jun 7, 2012:

As the current state of strong-AI is simply that NOBODY yet has a working strong-AI engine,by this definition EVERYBODY is playing, including IBM, GOOGLE, all the universities doing strong-AI research, DARPA….. need I go on.

It is my understanding that none of the companies you listed (and very few universities anywhere) are seriously pursuing strong-AI.

Hans Peter Willems - Jun 7, 2012:

But what really bugs me, is that because of this it seemingly is impossible to have a discussion just a little above the ‘hobbyist’ mark.

Yes, because when someone tries to start one, he gets sent to wikipedia.

Really Hans, I’m not trying to pick a fight here but I hope you can see where I’m coming from on this one. I’m excited to see where your work leads and I’m glad you’re more active on the forum again. You and Victor can back and forth all you like, but as for me, my only gripe was that your original post was condescending and inappropriate for the discussion at hand in this thread. We can back and forth about whether or not that was the case, but it would just add clutter to a topic that’s already been derailed enough as it is. So I’m done with this.

Vic, perhaps your purposes would be better served by discussing this issue with Mr. Loebner himself to see in what ways the quality and focus of such a high-profile contest might be improved in order to cast chatbots in a better light. Or perhaps organizing a contest that focuses on chatbots’ abilities as personal assistants would generate the type of PR you’re looking for.

Vic Duan - Jun 4, 2012:

As American Milk Association publish many ads to educate peole to consume more milk, can we, the AI applications developers, join together to the education job?

I think Chatbots.org, as an independent organization, has a mission to educate the market. Not only about its applications in customer service, sales (or marketing in general), but also in education, and training & simulation. In facts, this technology will truely impact society. We’re open to participate in global politics discussions to talk about the applications and drawbacks of this technology. We’re actually getting in this arena already.

Vic Duan - Jun 4, 2012:

As long as people believe chatbots are all lab toys that pretend to be real person but miserably fail, none of us can be very successful on this market. And I believe none of us along can change the impression or concepts that people have established for so many years.

1) We should not promote our industry around something like Loebner Prize or Turing Test any more.

I totally agree that the realization of what we could call ‘virtual humans’ is very confusing, extremely confusing, for clients. They try a Loebner Prize winner, and they conclude the technology is not ripe for corporate applications. Serious buyers however, will read reports written by Gartner and Forrester, and do their internet research (ending up on this website), and they will notify there are quite a few very good business cases to continue. It will start with the bigger companies, the early adaptors, and then spread over midsize and small size companies over the years. It’s a matter of time.

Vic Duan - Jun 4, 2012:

2) It’s time to establish an independent and non-profit organization for our industry. Erwin has beening moving in this direction and I believe it’s time to make it happen this year.

I’m not sure whether you’ll reach the right audience on this forum. However, I’ve discussed the topics before with multiple vendors, worldwide. I’ve a mailinglist that is sent to all professional vendors in this arena. You might want to play a role in setting up this association. Please contact me through email to discuss this in detail and explore opportunities.

On a sidenote: would it be possible to upload a resembling picture of yourself?
On another sidenote: don’t forget to add your company Acobot to our company directory: http://www.chatbots.org/companies/add/