Jan Bogaerts - Mar 12, 2011:

We have to start somewhere, don’t we?

I agree, but to use a quote from Stephen Covey; ‘you have to start with the end in mind’

Good replies   I will have to think about this some more !

As for being on LSD.  Hmmm…. if that were considered a real experience then you would probably have to consider dreams were real experiences too.

In a way I think they are but they are different to experiences in the physical world, which I think is what were considering… not sure.

Unless you just accept that anything that gets processed by the mind is an experience…  then dreams, LSD, whatever are all valid experiences.

Totally in the dark here really to be honest.

Roger Davie - Mar 12, 2011:

...Can’t you just make up a name like ‘Artificial Experience’ and then add bits on as you progress ?  It seems to me that is what is happening with ‘Artificial Intelligence’ anyway…

Or am I wrong ?  Does everything have to measure up to what a human is capable of ?

I agree, Freddy (er… Sorry… Roger). One must crawl before one walks, and one must walk before one can run.

Hans Peter Willems - Mar 12, 2011:

I agree, but to use a quote from Stephen Covey; ‘you have to start with the end in mind’

I don’t think so, Hans Peter. Many of my most significant discoveries in life came from “unstructured exploration”, where the only “goal” I had was “what’s out there?”, and I just followed from interesting point to interesting point, with no particular destination in mind. I suppose that could be construed as an end goal, but only one of the most nebulous kind. My creating Morti sprang from such a journey. I didn’t set out to create him. I just started surfing the web, looking for some interesting content, and I ended up here, of all places. Go figure.

Roger, you’re doing well here. Keep us all “on our toes”, all you wish! Don’t worry too much about being in the dark. Eventually, someone will be by with a “torch”. It happens to me a lot, around here.

Roger Davie - Mar 12, 2011:

As for being on LSD.  Hmmm…. if that were considered a real experience then you would probably have to consider dreams were real experiences too.

Unless you just accept that anything that gets processed by the mind is an experience…  then dreams, LSD, whatever are all valid experiences.

I would argue that, while those impressions are not real experiences, they do add to the perception building process. For example, a dream (if remembered) is certainly not a real experience (as it didn’t actually happen) but it can change our perceptional view on certain concepts.

Note; I am thinking about a possible role of ‘dreaming’ in my AI-mind model (I have stated this before in other topics), as I’m contemplating exactly this ‘perceptional change’ that can occur after dreaming. I still have to analyze my current version of the data-model to see where this might fit in.

Dave Morton - Mar 12, 2011:

Hans Peter Willems - Mar 12, 2011:

I agree, but to use a quote from Stephen Covey; ‘you have to start with the end in mind’

I don’t think so, Hans Peter. Many of my most significant discoveries in life came from “unstructured exploration”, where the only “goal” I had was “what’s out there?”, and I just followed from interesting point to interesting point, with no particular destination in mind.

While that is a great way to explore things, and ‘beautiful accidents’ might happen, some problems are of such complexity that upfront planning is the only solution to reach the right answer. I strongly believe that ‘strong AI’ (mind you I don’t say AI in general) is such a problem. I also suggest you read the paper I linked to recently, as it makes a very strong case for upfront planning in regard of strong-AI.

For your convenience I link to the paper here again: http://consc.net/papers/highlevel.pdf

Oh, please don’t get me wrong here. It’s a VERY good idea to have a goal in mind when planning/designing. It’s just not 100% essential. And some discoveries are best made when you’re not actually working toward any specific goals, so sometimes it’s a good idea to be less focused.

Fair enough Dave

And of course, ruling out any flexibility towards ‘beautiful accidents’ is not smart as well.

h, please don’t get me wrong here. It’s a VERY good idea to have a goal in mind when planning/designing. It’s just not 100% essential. And some discoveries are best made when you’re not actually working toward any specific goals, so sometimes it’s a good idea to be less focused. smile

Very true. Planning is grate for the day to day stuff, to keep the movement going, to get every step done as efficiently as possible.  That said, I rarely end up where I had in mind. Sometimes, you just happen to cross the path of something cool.

As for being on LSD.  Hmmm…. if that were considered a real experience then you would probably have to consider dreams were real experiences too.

In a way I think they are but they are different to experiences in the physical world, which I think is what were considering… not sure.

good point. Now I’m confused too.

Dave Morton - Mar 12, 2011:

Roger, you’re doing well here. Keep us all “on our toes”, all you wish! Don’t worry too much about being in the dark. Eventually, someone will be by with a “torch”. It happens to me a lot, around here.

Thanks Dave

We have had a lot of similar debates over on Ai Dreams in the past, I always enjoy them.  My trouble is I start believing one thing then a valid point comes up that has me believing the other !